NA-T Basics

[Bean]

Feel free to sticky this so others can add, this needs to be the start of a "Come to Jesus" talk with NA owners so they know how to turbocharge the mighty 2jz-ge. To any moderator: feel free to edit my post and make it more concise and/or readable.


Hopefully, by being on this website, you understand the basics of the 2jz series of engines. In the United States, Toyota released "technically" 2 versions of the 2jz motor, the GTE and the GE.... both come standard with DOHC, 24valves, EFI, etc... what else can you expect from Toyota? :)

The basic differences between the GE and GTE (not comparing either VVTI editions):
-Most obvious difference to anyone familiar with engines is the TURBOS. The GE has none, thats what the 'T' in GTE means.

-Another is the style of intake manifold, the GE has a manifold developed for more torque development in the lower-part of the rpm band vs the GTE's short runner type. The GE doesnt have more torque; its just that it develops more than it would if it had a GTE-style intake manifold. Hope you knew that. :)

-Compression, the GE runs a 10:1 compression ratio and the GTE runs a 8.5:1 compression ratio. The differences are obtained through a thicker headgasket (.2mm for GE vs 1.6mm for GTE) and lower compression pistons on the GTE. The higher compression allows the GE motor to make the most of its power since it lacks turbos to begin with.

-Injectors and Airflow sensors, the GE runs 330cc top-feed high impedance Denso-style injectors and uses a Karman Vortex air-metering sensor to read how much air volume is being injested. The GTE runs 540cc side-feed low impedance injectors (though uses a resistor pak to raise the impedance for the ECU's sake)... measured through a hotwire MAF sensor. The GE's airflow restriction is around 450hp from the stock AFM and the GTE is around 650-700hp depending on several factors.

-The heads are slightly different. Some say the GE flows better than the GTE, though no concrete numbers have come from a flowbench to prove it. The GTE motor has larger intake ports on the head whereas the GE has larger exhaust ports on the head. You make your own decisions.

-The exhaust manifold and intake manifolds port spacing and studs are completely different and will not work with one another unless some machining is involved with the manifolds themselves. There are people who have successfully grafted the upper part of the GTE intake manifold onto the lower part of the GE manifold.

-The GE motor runs a distributor-based ignition system with spark plug wires and a single coil. The GTE runs coil-on-plug ignition with individual coils for every plug. The distributor gets in the way somestimes of the turbo intake pipe :)

These are just motor differences, there are many little others such as oil squirters, oil feed/return lines, transmissions, etc.

Now onto Similarities:
Both the GE and GTE bottom ends are VERY strong. The only difference being the pistons themselves. Thats right, the rods and crankshaft are the SAME parts!!! The 2jz motor itself was DESIGNED to be turbocharged from the beginning and is built VERY strongly from the factory. No one yet knows the limits of a GE setup, though there are several 1000whp setups on the GTE with the stock bottom-end. Dave H uses a GE motor and ran a 9sec 1/4 mile time with the stock GE block ( a spare 220k mile motor to be specific!)
All in all, it is very doubtful that you will need to build your motor when designing a NA-T setup unless you're gunning for ridiculous amounts of power. The stock cams are roughly the SAME.

[Bean]

Designing a Turbokit for the 2JZ-GE

There are a few things to keep in mind when deciding what you want to do. The biggest decision RIGHT NOW is whether you want to build a DIY kit or order a pre-built one from a reputable shop.

Going the DIY
is very rewarding and you will learn more about your engine than you thought possible. I personally went this route TWICE on my first two setups on my SC300. But I had the typical problems.
-The Price is a good bit cheaper. Face it, you can source your own parts off ebay, used items off of SupraForums and Clublexus classifieds, etc and probably build a kit for much cheaper IF you get everything. This isnt always the case
-The installation is a bit more difficult since you're putting together parts that werent necessarily designed for one another and may require some fabrication
-Used parts dont last as long and a lot of times they just arent as good of a quality as new stuff is (new stuff is ALWAYS coming out for the GE car nowadays).

Buying a Kit
is much simpler and easier to follow. You will still learn a lot about your motor if you install your kit yourself and still have the oppurtunity to purchase some used parts if you can find good deals, etc. Buying a kit you KNOW that it will work correctly if its a reputable shop such as BoostLogic, Sound Performance, PHR, Dave H, etc. People have already done them, posted their results and their problems so you can be ready for it when its your turn. You can purchase a turbo kit, fuel kit, aem kit, and be done with it and have a monster on your hands. They literally come with everything you need... being from the other side, I can tell you that this is an immense PLUS. It doesnt quite sound like it... but having done it twice, this is the way I will do it a 3rd time.

Parts in a Typical Basic NA-T kit (note this is not everything you need)
Turbo manifold (there are log and header types, headers flow for more power, but spool slower)
Wastegate (bigger you go, the more control you have and less chances for spikes and creep)
Downpipe (connects to your exhaust)
Intake pipe (connects from your turbo inlet to your filter or AFM)
Oil feed and drain lines (feed and drain oil to/from the turbo)
Turbocharger (large varieties of these, this is what makes boost!)

In the basic kit you usually run directly off the wastegate spring. Most kits keep you running on the stock compression levels (10:1 remember?) in the first "stage" or two, until you get serious about power anyways. This results in quicker spoolup and better off-boost response but you cannot run as much boost without risking serious damage to your motor.

-10:1 compression limits you to around 7-8psi without fiddling with your ignition timing (stock timing has a big "spike" of advance around 4000-4500rpms that will cause detonation if running more than 8-9psi and the base timing is not retarded 3-4 degrees)
-stock injectors will also limit you powerwise. I've seen several setups make OVER 400whp on the stock fuel setup (upgraded fuel pump) but its still best to upgrade them (and with a way to control them too -- SAFC, emanage, MAP ECU, AEM standalone, etc)... generally I wouldnt go over 350whp with the stock 330s.
-intercooler options, some kits come with some dont, most of the lower-priced ones dont and you are left to fend for yourself in the intercooler arena... you NEED one to run more than 5 or 6psi reliably

What you REALLY need for a well balanced kit
-strong turbo manifold, either a strong cast unit or a strong (IE 321 Stainless Steel) tubular header manifold... Dave H's manifold runs via Weld Els and it is VERY strong and beefy. His manifold is more of a hybrid, not really a log and not really a header.

-turbocharger to suit your powerband preferences (a later discussion perhaps?). Most people go with a T04E or PTE style turbo that makes around 400whp at 10psi of boost.

EDIT: Thanks for suprapunk pointing out something: If you are building your own kit: Ensure that your exhaust turbine lines up with your manifold :) Like make sure its a T4 hotside and a T4 flange on the manifold, and make sure you have the correct hotside outlet as well to mate to your downpipe (v-band, on-center, etc)

-35mm wastegate, Tial or HKS brands are good stuff. Many kits are running 38 and 40mm gates, which is fine, they cost more. Depending on how much power you'll be making with your turbo, you need to decide what to run unless a kit-maker already picks one.

-fuel and a method of controlling that fuel to supply enough for your power needs. On more basic setups I recommend the Emanage blue. Affordable and can tune your car very nicely. Most basic kits can make good power with MKIII Supra Turbo injectors. They are also top feed (but low impedance, need resistor box or inline resistors) and denso style but flow 440cc instead of 330. The Lexus V8 AFM modification is affordable and can make the 440s easily tunable with a simple fuel controller.

-a FRONT MOUNT INTERCOOLER. Do it once, do it right. The sidemount jobs cannot compare with the Front mounts other than being harder to see. You can pick up good quality units off ebay for under $300 these days.

-A 3 inch downpipe and 3" exhaust system! At least 3 inches all the way back if you can. Turbos need FLOW, give them a bigger exhaust and they will spool faster and give you MORE POWER.

-GOOD spark plugs and good conditioned ignition system (get a new rotor and cap for your distributor pronto!). NGK 3330s and NGK 6097s are both great plugs, they are pregapped at .031 which is perfect for turbo applications under 19-20psi of boost

-Oil feed/drain lines properly sized. Typical setup is -3 or -4 AN feed with a -10 (no smaller) drain line. Garret turbos require much less oil than most people think; and dumping high pressure (60psi+) oil into it and then having a small return line blows the oil seals on the turbo very quickly. You want NO flow resistance on the return line. You can do this by having a BIG return line like a -10 or use a oil-line restrictor (can pick them up at atpturbo.com). IF you buy a premade kit that comes with a oil-line kit then don't fret, its already been tested and setup with the turbo you'll be running from the kit.

Keep in MIND!!! That all of this is how to get power reliably out of the MOTOR. The transmission and the rear end are completely different subjects. Your stock clutch WILL NOT withstand more than 300whp and last for very long. Your stock transmission WILL NOT WITHSTAND more than 400-450whp for very long and driven hard (your mileage may vary).
Autos are very different from the stock 5-speeds. Do your research on driveline modifications!

[Bean]

Bigger Power!

Keep in MIND!!! That all of this is how to get power reliably out of the MOTOR. The transmission and the rear end are completely different subjects. Your stock clutch WILL NOT withstand more than 300whp and last for very long. Your stock transmission WILL NOT WITHSTAND more than 400-450whp for very long and driven hard (your mileage may vary).
Autos are very different from the stock 5-speeds. Do your research on driveline modifications!

In the bigger power arena, you need to bypass several obstacles. One most notably being the stock ECU with regards to fuel metering. There are only so many bandaids you can run before you run out of airflow (even with the V8 AFM). This means by going to speed density!

Speed density is a completely different way of measuring the air intake in the engine vs the mass-air system used in the stock GE.

The stock GE system uses Karman Vortex as its way of measuring air. If you've ever taken apart your intake and see the sensor itself, you'll see a waffle-style (or honeycomb) front on it. What this does it cause small vortexes to form after the air enters the system. The more air that enters, the more vortexes (and the larger they get). The quantity and amplitude of these vortexes is measured by a small speaker inside the housing. You can see it if you look carefully. Do not damage the honeycomb up front, you will cause the sensor to read bad.

Speed density uses two seperate sensors to measure how much air has entered the system.
-The first sensor is a pressure sensor that senses how much pressure or vacuum is in the intake system. This is called the "MAP sensor" MAP is short for "manifold absolute pressure". By absolute, this means TOTAL pressure including atmospheric pressure (which is 1 BAR at sea level) by the way. If someone has a 3 bar map sensor, it means it can read 29.4psi of pressure ABOVE atmospheric (14.7psi = 1 BAR). Obviously, this is a little sensor, and causes no intake restrictions of ANY sort.
-The second sensor is an air temperature sensor. When air cools, it becomes more dense, with more oxygen molecules. This sensor allows the ECU to compensate with more fuel to keep a safe mixture when the temperature rises or drops. It is called an IAT sensor - or "intake air temperature" sensor. This sensor also causes no restriction.

Almost all aftermarket ECU solutions are Speed Density (also called MAP-based) and this includes the AEM ECU. It can run via AFM, but its a waste not to utilize the extra flow and control with MAP. The "MAP ECU" is a piggyback solution for the stock ECU. Like the older VPC, it translates a MAP-based signal into an AFM signal that the ECU can use (and isnt any the wiser). Both the MAP ECU and AEM allow you to run MUCH larger injectors.

Ok I'm running a speed density system, I am cool!
Not so fast! You need BIG fuel injectors for that too. Luckily, the stock fuel rail is a top-feed unit, has an FPR plug on it that is right around 1/4" NPT in size, and has a good enough internal diameter to flow enough fuel for over 700whp. Boost Logic, SP, Titan, etc now offer NA-T fuel systems that either use the stock rail or replace the whole thing completely. These systems are generally customizable to the size injectors you want and most use TWIN Walbro Fuel pumps. Nice eh?

After that, you will already need to be running a GOOD turbo header... the cast jobs work well in the low-power arena, but with the big boys its all about FLOW.... and cast units DONT :) On the header setups, you will already be using a larger wastegate (40mm+) and at least a 3" downpipe. A lot of companies will have a 4" downpipe and midpipe combo to upgrade to if you're going to be making big power (dont really need that unless you're hitting over 700-750hp).

A FRONT MOUNT INTERCOOLER!!! I'd laugh if someone tried this with a stock sidemount ;)

A turbo that can flow the amount of air you want. Do some research, because there is a HUGE turbo selection out there and new ones are coming out all the time that offer better and faster spool, more flow and power, and more extras ( like jet sounds from the ported shroud housings hehehe :))

At this point you MUST be running a thicker headgasket. Why? Because you cannot make over 400-450whp reliably with the stock 10:1 compression. Stock SupraTTs come with 8.5:1 compression and can run lots of boost from the factory. YOU can get to this point by running a thicker headgasket. Your stock gasket is very thin... like .2mm vs the GTE gasket which is 1.6. Do not worry about squish-volume problems too much, since the primary source of compression drop on the 2jz-gte is achieved by running a much thicker headgasket. 2.5mm will get you to 8.5:1 compression.

The only problem left is ignition, which can be solved by running lower gap on your plugs and an HKS DLI. It boosts the ignition signal and will allow you to still make spark at higher boost when it would normally be "blown out" from the excessive pressure.

After this point, you can start tuning, running racegas and making BIG power. The stock GE intake manifold (EGR delete please!) can flow over 800-850hp and there's no point in upgrading to a high-flow unit (such as the DaveH unit) until you eclipse this point.

There are lots of little things this guide didnt have for big power, which is detailed tuning instructions (get it tuned by a professional if you dont know what you're doing!), and small tidbits you should already know. (ie Beaded intercooler pipes, new gaskets for all hardware, etc)

Please understand that this is just a basic blow by blow of how to obtain power from this motor. If you can understand this so far, then congradulations, you can probably handle the whole deal just fine.
Remember that you can always just purchase a kit from a reputable manufacturer and it will come with everything you need.

Give one of the good shops a call and tell them exactly what kind of power you want with what kind of powerband (nothing too unrealistic here k?) and they will give you an invoice or statement telling you exactly what you need. They've answered these questions many times.

[scnat]

sounds like this should be named the na/t bible

[dima126]

nice this should be posted on every lexus forum. this is GOLD right here, thanks a lot man.

[Bean]

Thanks guys :) Took a bit to write all that up last night. Hopefully I can get some even more detailed writeup information on AEM installation and tuning, etc later on.

If you see anything that I've missed, by all means post it up! Kirk can add it to the FAQ section easily.

[Kirk]

Exactly.. anything missed please add so I could move it to the FAQ section. You did an excellent job.

[PuTooTs]

This is the best NA-T write up i have seen.

It answers alot of questions that people would have wihout making them feel stupid :)

Awesome job Bean

[Bean]

Thanks! If you have any questions on the basic stuffs that not on this FAQ or have extra info to add (or a correction), please post it here or PM me with the info (and I'll give you credit with an update)

[T72-2JZ]

Awsome writeup +rep your way

[champazn]

sounds like this should be named the na/t bible


:thumbup:

[Rico]

Very nice writeup mate. But one question , how about us living in Australia. Our Supe uses a MAP sensor, Do we need to adjust the timing?

Thanks.

[Bean]

On that note, I'm unsure.

A couple questions that would need to be answered about JDM engines in particular:

1) the JDM 2jz-ge MAP sensor... is it the same MAP sensor as the JDM 2jz-gte? As in, can it read positive manifold pressure? If it CANT, and its like a HONDA MAP sensor and can only read up to atmospheric, then you'll need to upgrade the map sensor somehow?

2) The JDM 2jz-ge STILL has a distributor-based ignition and doesnt run off a cam-sensor. So yes, the timing will still need to be retarded I'm pretty certain

[Rico]

Thanks for the reply Bean.
In regards with you questions.
I'm not sure, but I think JDM 2jz-ge can read positive pressure . I remember one of the members went on doing it before, using stock ECu and sensors (but engine cuts off after 5PSI).
And yes, basically JDM 2JZ's are the same as yours (dissy based), (except we have MAP, and u guys have MAF)
There are only a few NA-T's in Australia, most of the members on supraforums.com.au would prefer to either get a TT upgrade or a 1JZGTE transplate.
And almost all of the guys that did NA-T replaced their ECU with aftermarket ones.

I wanna get an second opinion on you guys, since ur more experienced than us :thumbup:

Thanks.

[madchinky]

hi guys, i have gone na-t with a jdm 2jz-ge and can tell you the stock MAP will only reads 2-3 psi before all the warning lights come on. i tried changing it with a MAP sensor from a gte but still no luck. the problem is the JDM ecu cant read boost above 3 psi.

[Rico]

hi guys, i have gone na-t with a jdm 2jz-ge and can tell you the stock MAP will only reads 2-3 psi before all the warning lights come on. i tried changing it with a MAP sensor from a gte but still no luck. the problem is the JDM ecu cant read boost above 3 psi.

Yeah i thought so. I dont think the NA-ECU can read boost (need aftermarket ECU then). Hey wut warning lights went on when you hit way past 3PSI, is it the Check Engine Light?. Is it drivable?, coz I just need to drive it about a few km's to the shop, so I can get the ECU installed and tuned.

Also would you mind sharing some problems u encounter doing the upgrade (if any.) I would very much appreciate it.

Thanks
Rico

[madchinky]

Yeah i thought so. I dont think the NA-ECU can read boost (need aftermarket ECU then). Hey wut warning lights went on when you hit way past 3PSI, is it the Check Engine Light?. Is it drivable?, coz I just need to drive it about a few km's to the shop, so I can get the ECU installed and tuned.

Also would you mind sharing some problems u encounter doing the upgrade (if any.) I would very much appreciate it.

Thanks
Rico


its fine to drive as long as u keep off boost. yeah the check engine light and the red one in the middle of the dash. i havent really had any other major problems.

[Rico]

its fine to drive as long as u keep off boost. yeah the check engine light and the red one in the middle of the dash. i havent really had any other major problems.

Cool... I'll just take of the spring from the wastegate so its wound hit boost. Thanks for the help buddy.

[SPORTcoupe]

Hey Bean,
Damn nice writeup you've got there.
I really wish I either had a better memory, or I would write some things I've discovered down so i could share the knowledge, but in the heat of the moment important bits of imformation get discarded and replaced by other bits.

I do have 1 bit though: OBD-II 2JZ-GEs run HotWire just like the GTEs. (From your post it seems like all GEs are Karman)
So: 92-95 GE = Karman
and 96-00 GE = HotWire
If you're unsure, theres an easy way to tell. Karman sensors have an aluminum housing and a rectangular connection on one side. (These are the ones with the honeycomb)
HotWire sensors have plastic housings.

If you want all the information to stay at the top, go ahead and add that to your post.

Also, the last paragraph of post #2 is repeated at beginning of post #3

I'm gonna try to remember to chime in once you start posting info on AEM EMS install.

Cheers,
~Alan

[Rico]

Hey guys one important question. Is your 2JZGE USDM different from our 2JZGE JDM? except you guys use MAF while we use MAP?. The reason for this question is that, I'm on the process of goin NA-T, but mechanic says that I have to replace the Drive Belt tensioner with the one on TT, if not the drive belt may come off on boost. Also he said that I need to adjust the Intake Air Control Valve. Is this true? i dont see any mods from your site regarding these. That is the my only dilemma, before starting my project. Pls help

[SPORTcoupe]

I'd say BS on both.
I've never heard of an Intake Air Control Valve. If he means the idle control motor, mine needed no midification. When the car idles, the turbo either spins slowly allowing enough air to come in, or the air goes around the propellers.
Get a second opinion.

~Alan

[Rico]

It is a Intake Air Control Valve. As seen on the pics.

[SPORTcoupe]

Oh ok. I haven't touched mine since going NA-T and haven't had any problems that I can associate with it.
I'm sure you're familiar with what it does, so I'll save you the explanation.
When it opens, it does change VE slightly by increasing flow, so if you're running a standalone such as the AEM, it's a good idea to compensate.

Any idea under what conditions this thing opens?

~Alan

[mogallo]

Good write-up man.... i sure learned a few things!!!

[96NA-T]

"10:1 compression limits you to around 7-8psi without fiddling with your ignition timing (stock timing has a big "spike" of advance around 4000-4500rpms that will cause detonation if running more than 8-9psi and the base timing is not retarded 3-4"
13psi+ for 10000 miles 100+ 1/4 mile runs on 10:1 no problems....its all about the AFR baby :thumbup:

[Bean]

"10:1 compression limits you to around 7-8psi without fiddling with your ignition timing (stock timing has a big "spike" of advance around 4000-4500rpms that will cause detonation if running more than 8-9psi and the base timing is not retarded 3-4"
13psi+ for 10000 miles 100+ 1/4 mile runs on 10:1 no problems....its all about the AFR baby :thumbup:

Care to elaborate?

You won't drive around on 13psi+ on stock compression, stock ignition curve and a fuel map that will get you better than 12-13mpg and still have a running car after 10000 miles.

Its not "all about the AFR baby". Please don't try to simplify something as critical as this and then toss it out like its trivial in this particular thread. If you want to debate something so concrete as the danger of advanced ignition, higher boost levels, and high compression, keep it in the main forum. Your situation may be special; and there will be people reading this thread that arent experienced enough in turbocars in general and the 2jz-ge to be able to see the difference.

There are many people who have experienced pinging under these conditions; and plenty with blown motors. Let's try to establish WHY your setup has defied some problem that everyone else has had--by looking at the details of your setup itself.

[abflug]

Thanks a lot MR bean! man i 2nd the fact that you should have written a book and titled this the na guide to power, your inputs and suggestions with your vivid knowledge is greatly appreciated, a job well done! :bowrofl:

[Macleod]

I have come to the sad conclusion that if you have a 98 N/A, i.e. VVT-I, then you're shit out of luck. Is this correct?

[captdale]

Very nice write up. I do have a question concerning cams. I know you can't ue the TT exhaust cam as it does not have the distributor gear. I have heard of people using the TT intake cam and exhaust cam adjustable gear. Please elaborate on the question of cams on the 2JZ-GE NA-T engine. thanks. d

[Vistec r]

Great write up Bean. It answear alot of my questions and i know where to come for help when i start my setup.

[Bean]

No problem guys. I've been away in the S13 world lately, but I'm still around, contemplating a 2jz-gte swap on my SC.

[Simann]

Are the GE pistons forged like the GTE pistons? (95' lexus SC300 5 speed here).

Thanks,
Jonathan Mann

[Bean]

The GTE pistons are not forged. They are pressure-cast pistons IIRC, and so are the GE...

the main difference between the two is that the GTE pistons are heat treated and have a different CC volume; tho its not a huge difference.

[Cory]

I have come to the sad conclusion that if you have a 98 N/A, i.e. VVT-I, then you're shit out of luck. Is this correct?

I second this question. Eventually I want to just build a 2JZ from the block up, but seeing as my current VVT-i engine only has 125k on it, I'd like to boost it before dropping $10-12 g's on a whole new motor.

EDIT -- I'm retarded, moving on... :owned:

[stockSC300]

Oh ok. I haven't touched mine since going NA-T and haven't had any problems that I can associate with it.
I'm sure you're familiar with what it does, so I'll save you the explanation.
When it opens, it does change VE slightly by increasing flow, so if you're running a standalone such as the AEM, it's a good idea to compensate.

Any idea under what conditions this thing opens?

~Alan

Intake Air Control Valve, it toggles between different runner lengths to better utilize Helmholtz law, and create a broader area under the torque curve. This is one of the ways Toyota/Lexus harnesses the pulse creating vortexes of the Helmholtz law. It’s a theory of vortexes pulsing at a certain frequency, created by specified runner length and diameter. These vortexes create pulses which ram the air into the motor at certain frequencies; this could actually give you more than 100% volumetric efficiency at certain RPMs. On the 2JZ-GE motor for example, at wide open throttle in second gear, with an aftermarket intake, you start to hear the motor resonate at two different RPMs. The first resonance approaches 4500RPM, and then the second resonance approaches 6100RPM. Toyota/Lexus did this during the design of the intake to give the GE motor more efficiency, giving it more torque throughout the RPM band, making the car easier to drive. If you want to get technical it involves the speed of sound, air density, runner length(distance from the valve opening), runner diameter, cam duration, ect….. PM me for the equation, or just go out and buy Ricardo (copyright) flow software.

To give you an abstract idea blow into a coke bottle! :)

[Dramon]

Intake Air Control Valve, it toggles between different runner lengths to better utilize Helmholtz law, and create a broader area under the torque curve. This is one of the ways Toyota/Lexus harnesses the pulse creating vortexes of the Helmholtz law. It’s a theory of vortexes pulsing at a certain frequency, created by specified runner length and diameter. These vortexes create pulses which ram the air into the motor at certain frequencies; this could actually give you more than 100% volumetric efficiency at certain RPMs. On the 2JZ-GE motor for example, at wide open throttle in second gear, with an aftermarket intake, you start to hear the motor resonate at two different RPMs. The first resonance approaches 4500RPM, and then the second resonance approaches 6100RPM. Toyota/Lexus did this during the design of the intake to give the GE motor more efficiency, giving it more torque throughout the RPM band, making the car easier to drive. If you want to get technical it involves the speed of sound, air density, runner length(distance from the valve opening), runner diameter, cam duration, ect….. PM me for the equation, or just go out and buy Ricardo (copyright) flow software.

To give you an abstract idea blow into a coke bottle! :)

How does boost change the dynamics of the system though? I just disabled mine becuase I figured that it was tuned with a naturally aspirated setup in mind.

[stockSC300]

To anwser your question, you're right, the system is designed with NA inmind. The Intake Air Control Valve is right in the middle of the intake pelenum inbetween the two large intake runners.

http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l190/Brettwcollins/Intake_control.jpg

I figured out that during wide open throttle with an NA motor the IACV opens when the motor see's atmospheric pressure, I also held it closed to see if that did any thing, there was no result since the motor WASN'T under load. For your application since you disabled the IACV, I believe the butterfly doesn't open at all, which will result in faster turbo spool, with a tiny loss in maximum power. If you were to find a way to hold it open you should see a very slight (if any) increase in overall power. but this is pure speculation with no hard proof to back it up. So maybe you could be a pioneer, and hold the IACV open, and see if you see any increase in power. Also with it open you might have to change your tune a little. here is some other food for thought, which might help everyone understand the above mentioned.


The dynamics of the system were designed with the NA and helmholtz intake tuning inmind. The reason manufacture's use intake tuning and the helmholtz law is to get maximum FLOW at certain RPMs without the cost of turbochargers or superchargers. Turbochargers and superchargers pressurize air, higher than atmospheric pressure to create a denser intake charge also intake velocity is increased. How is boost effected by helmholtz, its not. One way to use both helmholtz tunning with a turbocharger would be to tune the intake to the RPM that the turbo would start to spool maximum pressure. However they have turbos now that spool at very low RPM's, and have a broad spectrum of performance. So the use of helmholtz tuning is almost useless for anything other than NA. With Turbochargers and Superchargers there is very little to no helmholtz intake tunning, so the intake has to be as open and free flowing as possible to deliever the denser charge of air. For example, larger intake runner diameters and shorter runner length, with little to no bends in the runners. Larger plenum and larger throttle body for an increase in flow. thats about it. however the larger the intake the longer it takes for the turbo to spool so find a healthy comprimise. If you need an example just look at the NA intake versus the GTE intake.

Please excuse the paragraphs they are plagued with grammatical errors, and misspellings, moderator feel free to edit everything.

[Supraman117]

Wow super amazing info bean...good job...ay bean quick ?,ive been asking couple people here on the forums this,but i dont know what fuel to run on my gt70,and i wanna run a 1.3mm hg so i can boost 17-18lbs cool,like what size injectors and ecu?i already got a 255pump...well ecu im planning on a map ecu you mentioned but injectors,size?and you said there top fed so if i can find them used from what car?.... thanx man

[OdyOwnage]

Damn I love this thread! :)

[gsoup]

To anwser your question, you're right, the system is designed with NA inmind. The Intake Air Control Valve is right in the middle of the intake pelenum inbetween the two large intake runners.

http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l190/Brettwcollins/Intake_control.jpg

I figured out that during wide open throttle with an NA motor the IACV opens when the motor see's atmospheric pressure, I also held it closed to see if that did any thing, there was no result since the motor WASN'T under load. For your application since you disabled the IACV, I believe the butterfly doesn't open at all, which will result in faster turbo spool, with a tiny loss in maximum power. If you were to find a way to hold it open you should see a very slight (if any) increase in overall power. but this is pure speculation with no hard proof to back it up. So maybe you could be a pioneer, and hold the IACV open, and see if you see any increase in power. Also with it open you might have to change your tune a little. here is some other food for thought, which might help everyone understand the above mentioned.


I actually removed the actuator and mine is locked into the open position. It feels different but I will know later when i dyno my car again.

[Bean]

Wow super amazing info bean...good job...ay bean quick ?,ive been asking couple people here on the forums this,but i dont know what fuel to run on my gt70,and i wanna run a 1.3mm hg so i can boost 17-18lbs cool,like what size injectors and ecu?i already got a 255pump...well ecu im planning on a map ecu you mentioned but injectors,size?and you said there top fed so if i can find them used from what car?.... thanx man

2nd gen RX-7s have 550s (Do your research, their impedances vary by year), but its tough to find any bigger than that on a stock car.

I'd go with the MAP ECU 2 if you're in that price range, it offers timing control (which you're going to need to run that much boost on a 1.3mm HG).

Not sure what GT70 you're using, I'm assuming its a Chinese turbo (a Garret T70 is a horrible turbo for this car, its surge line is terrible for it). How much power are you planning on making? Take that number and then get the right sized injectors for that application..

Also, FYI; you can run additional injectors on a small rail (they are sold by various shops) connected to your intake piping; the MAP ECU2 can control them. 6 primary 550s with 2 additional 550s that come on at a certain boost level might work out ok. 8 550 injectors is the same as ~6 720s.

[toyota1515]

how about camshafts is the ge compatible with the gte so i can run some aftermarket camshafts for more power or they are diferent like the 1jz cuz i know 1jz wont work on 2jz or something like that!

i think i need to open another thread for this question!

[J_K]

hey Mate.

Im pretty sure you can use the intake cam shaft off a GTE, but i dont think you can use the exhaust camshaft off a GTE as the GE has something on it to do with the distributor and the GTE doesnt use a distributor.

i dont think there is any shop that offers aftermarket camshafts for a 2JZGE, well not out here in Aus anyway.

the only way around this is to get your stand camshafts off the GE regrinded,

someone else might want to confirm this.

hope this helps.

[chopstickz]

hard welded or regrinded.

[Bean]

there are cams for the GE now btw, and yes the GTE intake cam works too

[LexusFTW]

http://www.mkiv.com/specifications/ncf/ncf93/ncf080.jpg

[Tim9]

I just wanted to add information that I got an answer for in the tech post.

I knew from the other posts including this one that the bottom end was basically the same, but I did not know if the head combustion chambers/volumes were the same.

My Question was basically:

If you swapped the pistons and head gaskets between GE and GTE engines would they have the same compression ration.

That is if you put GTE pistons and head gasket that result in an 8.5:1 Compression Ratio in a GE motor it also will have a Compression Ration of 8.5:1 .

The answer I got from Lexus FTW was that, yes they would.

I needed to know this so I could by the right GTE parts for my GE rebuild.

Thanks Lexus FTW.:)

Tim

[LexusFTW]

Tim, what I said is not entirely true. Considering the combustion chamber volume differences between the GE and GTE, using GTE pistons and an GE head will yield a lower compression ratio of 8.3:1

Info found here:
http://www.supraforums.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=171162

This is also a good link:
http://www.clubna-t.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2975&highlight=compression+ratio

[alpinejoe]

since you guys seem to be the gurus ha ha what would it take to make 700whp on this motor?

[tylka]

quick question how much boost can i run on a t61, 1.6mm headgasket,255 walbro, 550cc injectors, im surrently running 10psi....i bought the car with all that on there so now i need to know what kinda boost i can run...thx

[LexusFTW]

How much boost is relevant to other factors. Do you have timing/fuel control? What octane fuel are you using? 10psi is conservative but i wouldn't push much past that without either higher octane fuel or timing control.

[tylka]

well i do have the map ecu...no fuel pressure regulator tho...you think the best bet would be to get a fpr amd take it to a shop so they can set it up for me?

[tylka]

and ill just be running 93octane...daily driver

[krymahar]

About how much would a complete good 450-500whp kit cost me for my supra Na-t Project ?

[spd_dvl]

Just curious are the VVT-i Engine just as strong as the GTE?

[LexusFTW]

Just curious are the VVT-i Engine just as strong as the GTE?

VVT-i GE or GTE?

The VVT-i GE motors are a lot weaker than their non-VVT-i counterparts.
The VVT-i GTE motors have the EXACT same internals as the non-VVT-i GTE.

[Gspec]

Both the GE and GTE bottom ends are VERY strong. The only difference being the pistons themselves. Thats right, the rods and crankshaft are the SAME parts!!!


I keep reading two different things about this....wikipedia for instance, states that the gte has a forged crank where the ge does not.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_JZ_engine

anyone know for certain?

and what is this page out of? :http://www.mkiv.com/specifications/ncf/ncf93/ncf080.jpg

[LexusFTW]

I keep reading two different things about this....wikipedia for instance, states that the gte has a forged crank where the ge does not.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_JZ_engine

anyone know for certain?

It has been proven and documented that the GE and GTE rods and crank are the same with the same part numbers.

[Gspec]

I figured the topic had been beaten to death, but I couldn't find anything in all my searching....thanks for not breaking out the flamer thrower.

[Importsnrice]

This is the best read I've ever done in my life! So much info! Kudos for you man!

[domantas]

4 sure nice write up, thanks to Bean +++

[samuel_mkiv]

hey guys .. I am new registerard on the website,
very nicely written,
I will renovate my engine this winter and turbo konventera next winter. I thought I would have TT cylinder head gasket
and drive the car one summer, this will be reflected on the car will go bad.

[Mr Ree NZ]

I know this is an old post but just incase....

It will be fine to run with a GTE HG, at worst your car will slightly less responsive than it was when N/A but no damage will occur

[jimmybahh]

so i can run my is300 boosted off of stock injectors?? i only want to make around 300 whp and thats it. im using it fro drifting

[21oreo21]

^^ 300 whp should be fine.

[dejacky]

^^ 300 whp should be fine. +1 I concur :biggrin:

[FastLex]

Wow, best thread I've come across. Big up to you guys. Thanks for all the info.

I have an '04 IS300, But I am dissapointed to learn that the VVTi 2jzge are not as strong as the older ones. Which leads me to my question, can i still go NA-T on it, or just do a swap? Looking at a daily driver running 0.6 bar (9psi). Would i be wasting my time and money going NA-T on the vvti 2jzge?

Thanks.

[domantas]

you will be absolutely fine on 9psi, and you will be making enough power to brake ur trans ;)

[Mr Ree NZ]

Couldnt agree more.There is nothing wrong with the vvti engine really, it just has rods that arent quite as over engineered as the non vvti rods. I find it funny when you hear people say they are "weak" when they hold big number reliably.

The fact is unless you are looking to have over 600hp then it should never become an issue.

[FastLex]

Thanks for the replies guys.

@ Mr Ree NZ, it's ok i don't think I'm wanting 600hp for daily driving. lol.

I must say from the sites I've been too, this one is the best for NA-T advice.

[David2009]

Hello,

I have been searching but cannot find the info I need for my engine build, so I have asked here.

Stock 2JZA80 GE engine, Eaton M112 1835cc per rev supercharger with bespoke air to water charge cooler, upgraded exhaust and ignition systems, Walbro fuel pump and an AEM 30-1100 ECU.

Crank pulley is an ATI @ 6.78" planned SC pulley @ 4.5" calcs to 12lbs boost.

Using calculator on page linked below, the dynamic CR would be 16:1.

http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/comprAdvHD.htm

I am using stock N/A cams @ inlet +1o & exhaust -3o, are these settings good for forced induction?

Planning to build an upgraded hybrid N/A T.T. trans to take the power and be Suprastick compatible, I believe this trans should be good for 550 to 600 fwhp?

What power fwbhp/lbft and character engine would I have with stock H.G. and 12lbs boost?

What power fwbhp/lbft and character engine could I have with lower compression and more boost?

Would really like to see compression/boost/bhp/torque figures.

Will 550cc high imp injectors be O.K?

Link to the project and current spec; http://www.mkivsupra.net/vbb/vbpicgallery.php?do=view&g=3257

Thank you

[David2009]

Hello,

Is anybody alive on here?

[Importsnrice]

So you have a Supercharged Supra?? Or you want to supercharge it?

And whats FWBHP? We're RWD! It would be RWHP

[David2009]

Hello,

I have an Eaton M112 supercharger that I plan to fit.
The proposed spec is listed above and looking for input.

(FWBHP Flywheel bhp)

[David2009]

Hellooooooooooooooooo, is anybody out theeeere?

:confused:

[David2009]

Is this forum still active, or has it died?

[LexusFTW]

Hello,

I have been searching but cannot find the info I need for my engine build, so I have asked here.

Stock 2JZA80 GE engine, Eaton M112 1835cc per rev supercharger with bespoke air to water charge cooler, upgraded exhaust and ignition systems, Walbro fuel pump and an AEM 30-1100 ECU.

Crank pulley is an ATI @ 6.78" planned SC pulley @ 4.5" calcs to 12lbs boost.

Using calculator on page linked below, the dynamic CR would be 16:1.

http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/comprAdvHD.htm

I am using stock N/A cams @ inlet +1o & exhaust -3o, are these settings good for forced induction?

Planning to build an upgraded hybrid N/A T.T. trans to take the power and be Suprastick compatible, I believe this trans should be good for 550 to 600 fwhp?

What power fwbhp/lbft and character engine would I have with stock H.G. and 12lbs boost?

What power fwbhp/lbft and character engine could I have with lower compression and more boost?

Would really like to see compression/boost/bhp/torque figures.

Will 550cc high imp injectors be O.K?

Link to the project and current spec; http://www.mkivsupra.net/vbb/vbpicgallery.php?do=view&g=3257

Thank you

Sorry for the late reply to the thread. Let me see if I can help you with your questions.

The stock NA cams will be fine for boosting but you'll begin to see their disadvantages when you reach 550-600 whp. A nice set of 264 cams would yield ~30 more horsepower.

I'm not familiar with supercharging the GE motor because going turbo is just as easy with the MANY kits available. I would guess your supercharge may support somewhere in the 350-400 HP range at 12psi. This is all just speculation as I've never seen a setup like the one you're putting together on a 2jz although I do know a thing or two about superchargers from my Mustang days.

Obviously lower compression and higher boost would be to your benefit. Whether it would be with a supercharger or a turbocharger, forced induction likes this setup.

Assuming you'll be in the 400 HP range, 550cc injectors will be fine. A general rule with the 2jz is 1cc = 1whp. 550cc have been shown to support 525-550 hp depending on setup. I wouldn't push it past 550 in any case. Also, a single Walbro 255lph pump supports this number as well.

[LexusFTW]

I followed the link and can't see the pictures for some reason. Can you post them up on here?

[David2009]

Hello,

Thank you for responding. :)

Not a lot to see yet, just collecting a few of the components needed.

Firstly I would like to know what is the max psi that can be used on a stock N/A engine fueled with 95 octane, charge cooled air and water meth injection @ 12% fuel parallel?

Looking to find max power from an unopened N/A engine, yet would like to achieve the magic 500bhp.

A T.T. auto trans with an N/A valve body and cable operated line pressure, works fine with either an N/A ECU or Suprastick.

Here is a snap of the SC directly above the position I plan to mount it.

[Mr Ree NZ]

Yeehaa I cant wait to see this baby up and running :)

I like the custom slots you have put into your plastic cam/ht lead covers.

Are you planning on using an aftermarket ECU with timing control? If so then you will be able to put alot more boost into it than you would on a stock GE timing map.

What have you dont so far with your set up? I notice the cam gears, fuel pressure gauge, bigger leads, heatwrapped extractors maybe? How does it currently perform?

[David2009]

I am currently in the final stages of a 'how much power and mpg can you get from an N/A' build, with AEM 30-1100 ECU, HHO and water/meth injection.
When it goes on the rollers, I will let you know.
The supercharger project is the next phase for this GE engine.
The link below is to the current spec.
Here's a snap of the engine now.

[Mr Ree NZ]

awesome :)

I notice you have the luxury of cruise control too hehe, I would kill for a complete GE cruise set up from an export model. Its one of the few things I would add weight to my car for.

[David2009]

Cruise control and active spoiler functions are both retrofits.
My N/A Supra had the engine loom for the job, but I had to change the dash loom to integrate the ECU's, and column loom to mate to cruise stalk.
I used looms from a J spec T.T. which were compatible other than 3 of the wires to front wipers which went to the wrong side of loom, just linked wires to pins in correct kick panel.

[Mr Ree NZ]

Nice work, Im envious :)

[David2009]

I would like to achieve the magic 500 (flywheel) bhp with this build.

I want to keep the compression as high as reliable.

99 RON fuel is readily available, I will be using water/meth injection and a water to air charge cooler.

What psi boost, and what thickness head gasket will be required?

[LexusFTW]

You're in uncharted territory here. On stock headgasket we would run ~8 psi. I would go with a TT headgasket and run as much psi as you can get out of the supercharger. It looks like you have quality fuel and the meth will really help.

[Mr Ree NZ]

I would like to achieve the magic 500 (flywheel) bhp with this build.

I want to keep the compression as high as reliable.

99 RON fuel is readily available, I will be using water/meth injection and a water to air charge cooler.

What psi boost, and what thickness head gasket will be required?

As LexusFTW said, it is unchartered territory but at the end of the day, boost is boost.

What ignition control are you going to run? What size Injectors? Fuel pump?

If you have a good tuner, and I mean a REALLY good tuner, and you have 99RON, and you have water/meth, and you have a water/air intercooler, I would personally be keeping the 10:1 CR and seeing what you can safely get out of that first before considering upgrading the HG.

Im really interested to see how much you can safely extract from that set up as with all the octane and cooling, detonation isnt going to be a problem provided your tune is on point.

The response will be crazy!

If you arent that brave, then get a 1.3mm TT HG and do as LexusFTW suggested...wind as much boost in as you can hehe ;)

[DrNick]

Remember that the octane rating listed on the pump is different in the UK as compared to the US. In UK (And here in Australia) the rating is the RON, whereas in the US its the average of RON and MON ratings, so it appears lower for this reason. 95 octane in US is probably the same as the 99 RON stuff in UK. So don't fall into the trap that you can push a heap more compression than the US guys do on 95 octane. (Although the cold UK weather would help somewhat)

[Mr Ree NZ]

95 octane + water/meth + cold weather = :)

[DrNick]

You might get less benefit from a water/meth kit in cold weather though.

[LexusFTW]

I run 91 octane (95 RON) and it is complete shit. I run meth injection to make up for it.

As far as benefits from meth in cold weather, I run 100% meth an no water. While, there is less benefit in cooling the charge temp, I'll need the meth to make up for the low octane.

[Mr Ree NZ]

Yes the waters cooling properties might not be so effectual if ambient air temps are super low but it will still help cool the combustion chamber when atomised. The Meth will definitely help with raising the octane levels and help to stave off detonation atleast. :)

[DrNick]

Yeah I was just thinking of the cooling and not the anti knock propety of the meth.
But did you know that overcooling the combustion chamber will lower the combustion gas temperature and reduce the amount of power transferred to the piston.

[LexusFTW]

^ Interesting. More research for me!

[DrNick]

Oh i think you have to cool it pretty far for it to be 'overcool' (never saw any actual numbers). So with your setup with that much boost the heat must be incredible in the combustion chamber so you probably need all the cooling you can get.

[Mr Ree NZ]

I am hoping to borrow some temp sensors off a friend so I can do some logging of my pre and post intercooler temps at 8psi, then at 12psi to see how much difference there is. (Obviously with same ambient temps)

I have never felt my intercooler anything other than stone cold after doing laps at the track at 8psi, and I am keen to add a little bit more boost, but not if its going to increase intake temps substantially as I still dont have my IAT sensor installed post cooler (its in the intake pipe), nor do I have a timing map written for the emanage so Im still relying on the factory ECU to control timing. If at 12psi the intake temps are almost the same then I could reasonably conclude that things will still work as they do at 8psi.

I do recall being told what the supposed "ideal" combustion chamber temp was but I imagine there will be so many variables that it would be silly to apply it as a rule of thumb to any car.

[David2009]

Hello,

Thanks for the input, I hadn't noticed the thread was active, because the email notification is not functioning.

I am curious to learn just how far an unopened N/A will go, and want the engine tuned for max torque and quick response.

Yet admit to a hankering for 500 flywheel bhp.

http://forum.clubna-t.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1243&stc=1&d=1289655546

I have bought another N/A engine to use for mocking up, and have as a spare in case this one goes bang.

I have sourced 2 pre rads from Jag X300's, these cooled 326bhp each in their original guise and are the perfect size to fit.

http://forum.clubna-t.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1239&d=1289649175

I have also found this charge cooler, it is rated at 600bhp+ and the core is the perfect size to re-engineer to fit over the engine.

http://forum.clubna-t.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1240&stc=1&d=1289650152

The exhaust headers are wrapped so well you can hold them in your hand even after a good thrash.

http://forum.clubna-t.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1241&d=1289650500

The engine management will be an AEM 30-1100 and the water/meth injection is an Aquamist 2C, which will be 50/50 @ 15% fuel parallel and fed immediately after the charger and will also be controlled by the AEM.

There will also be a 6lpm HHO system fed before the pre charger mounted throttle body.

http://forum.clubna-t.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1242&stc=1&d=1289651344

The M112 gives 21psi at it's max rpm of 14,000 on this capacity engine, so available boost is a plenty.

I just need to learn the max boost that can be used with this set up on 99 RON so I can choose the pulley size.

Also considering adding pre charger fueling, which will give additional induction cooling and can also be controlled by the AEM.

Input welcomed.

[DrNick]

how big is the hole in the bonnet on that supra you posted?

[David2009]

I have a U.K. T.T. (export) spec bonnet, but will need to modify another to make room for the charge cooler.
No need for a 'Mad Max' but it will need a 1" lift.
Thinking to make a bonnet scoop the same as now, but double the width and just slightly larger in length and height.
That would make plenty of room and provide extra cooling.

[ccwhit7]

Awesome write up. That ended days of using the search button .. Tks

[halfrican]

so your saying that on a stock 10.1 you should run 7-8 pounds of boost daily and never more then 12-13 on stock pistons ignition and map

[halfrican]

so your saying that on a stock 10.1 you should run 7-8 pounds of boost daily and never more then 12-13 on stock pistons ignition and map and on a stock set up what kinda power (hp) should i be looking at.

[zubairkassam]

Thanks guys :) Took a bit to write all that up last night. Hopefully I can get some even more detailed writeup information on AEM installation and tuning, etc later on.

If you see anything that I've missed, by all means post it up! Kirk can add it to the FAQ section easily.


hi i have jus purchased a 2jz ge supra that has been parked for 7yrs its engine has only done 47000km however it is 5speed manual non turbo my brother has a twin turbo 6speed what is the best option for me to do? i bought the car for about $3500.00 so still have a fare amount to spend on it

please advise:)

[OdyOwnage]

Damn, talk about a steal. You can go either way. Depends on your preference. If you're looking to do REALLY big things, I would go TT swap though.

[zubairkassam]

Damn, talk about a steal. You can go either way. Depends on your preference. If you're looking to do REALLY big things, I would go TT swap though.

any ideas if possible?

[OdyOwnage]

Ideas?

Well here's how I see it:

1. NA-T (you save money going this route plus you can achieve plenty of power). Things to consider 5-speed, 6-speed, R154, etc

2. TT Swap (you will dish out more money but now you have a great base to begin big power goals). Same for transmissions to consider.

[98$c300vvti]

Couldnt agree more.There is nothing wrong with the vvti engine really, it just has rods that arent quite as over engineered as the non vvti rods. I find it funny when you hear people say they are "weak" when they hold big number reliably.

The fact is unless you are looking to have over 600hp then it should never become an issue.

so your saying,that the vvti rods will hold up to 600hp?many say that they won't hold past 320hp-350hp.

[Promark]

Ok so i just joined this forum... i picked up a 91 cressida last night with 7mge in it. the car is perfect except the motor doesnt run.. but... i also have a 2jzge motor sitting in my buddies shop that i bought originally for a 240z project. i want to put it in the cressida and just go sleeper mode with that car. im just a bit confused and i hope you guys can help me out. thanks

1. when you say NA-T.. does that mean having a 2jzge and just putting a turbo kit on it?

2. if my hp goal is 300-350,, can it be achieved with the GE that i already have and if so what would be the best investment to improve reliability

3. Am i better of selling my motor and buying a gte? i have read the OP.. and it seems to me that if i want to stay under 400hp then im cool with staying with my GE. reliability and financially?

Thanks Again

[David2009]

1. Yes.

2. Yes.
2b. Use 5W-40 or 5W-50 and change every 3k miles.

3. GE engine is happy to 600bhp.