Sponsors have too much power & this forum will not survive as a result

[Jer]

Twice now I've had entire conversation threads deleted because it went against what a site sponsor said even if it was the wrong thing. This forum will NOT survive if it continues to allow site sponsors to say incorrect things or go unchecked by acting shady for whatever reason and then be able to delete any opposition regardless of level of intelligence or class used in presenting the correct information or point out how they have acted in an otherwise improper manner.

I'm not going to mention names but those who I'm talking about know who you are. If you choose to come forward and discuss what you did then that's fine. If you choose to keep hiding and/or delete this thread then that will further illustrate why this forum isn't gaining popularity. Members are smarter than this and they are being run off by advertisers who are allowed to do whatever they want because they write a small check each month to have a section and banner.

I had hoped for good things from this forum since SF.com has gone so far downhill but I can see that this site is doomed to follow suit unless something is done now to correct the problems and get it back on track. Even now as I type this I cringe to think that it could be deleted because someone doesn't agree with what I say even though it's right.

You can suspend me, ban me or delete this thread but if any of that happens it just further emphasizes my point.

[LexusFTW]

Sponsors and Moderators should NOT delete posts because of a bias in opinion. The only time posts may be deleted if it is irrelevant, incorrect, or off-topic information pertaining to the thread. Im sure Mark will do the right thing in this instance and get things taken care of.
I apologize for your trouble and I want you to know that this forum needs informative members like yourself to keep this site up and running.

[98mkiv]

PM sent Jer, PM me back please or better yet, give a call.

[96NA-T]

Twice now I've had entire conversation threads deleted because it went against what a site sponsor said even if it was the wrong thing. This forum will NOT survive if it continues to allow site sponsors to say incorrect things or go unchecked by acting shady for whatever reason and then be able to delete any opposition regardless of level of intelligence or class used in presenting the correct information or point out how they have acted in an otherwise improper manner.

I'm not going to mention names but those who I'm talking about know who you are. If you choose to come forward and discuss what you did then that's fine. If you choose to keep hiding and/or delete this thread then that will further illustrate why this forum isn't gaining popularity. Members are smarter than this and they are being run off by advertisers who are allowed to do whatever they want because they write a small check each month to have a section and banner.

I had hoped for good things from this forum since SF.com has gone so far downhill but I can see that this site is doomed to follow suit unless something is done now to correct the problems and get it back on track. Even now as I type this I cringe to think that it could be deleted because someone doesn't agree with what I say even though it's right.

You can suspend me, ban me or delete this thread but if any of that happens it just further emphasizes my point.


Same thing happens at most automotive forums. You bring up something about a bogus or crap item of a sponsor and you get banned.
The automotive aftermarket is full of flakes and it isnt going to get better.
:blah: :blah: :blah: :blah: :blah: :blah: :blah: :blah: :blah:

[Jer]

PM sent Jer, PM me back please or better yet, give a call.

PM replied to.

[Jer]

Same thing happens at most automotive forums. You bring up something about a bogus or crap item of a sponsor and you get banned.
The automotive aftermarket is full of flakes and it isnt going to get better.
:blah: :blah: :blah: :blah: :blah: :blah: :blah: :blah: :blah:

It isn't going to get better as long as we the consumer allow it to continue and support such sponsors. There's plenty of places to buy car parts and if one vendor fits that description then take your business elsewhere. They will learn when it hits them in the pocket book or they will not succeed.

As for this happening on 'most automotive forums' I respectfully disagree with this statement. This seems to be only true on Supra related forums by and large. I'm not sure what the issue is but it's fairly isolated. I'm on plenty of forums and I don't get this level of frustration from any of the others. Just the Supra related ones. I even mod on a few other forums and have been members of a few for over 8yrs now and still have never had as much headache as I've received from NA-T and SF.com. It's just not conducive to keeping existing members happy and getting new members to join but eventually they will realize that, hopefully before it's too late. Your members are your key and if you start putting yourself and your sponsors above them and making them feel unwanted then you will soon realize that your sponsors don't matter.

[98mkiv]

Jer, I appreciate your opinons, but regardless of whether the posts that were deleted were related to a sponsor FS thread or not, they would likely have been deleted - you have no basis to trash someone in their own FS thread unless they are doing something illegal. The posts would have likely been deleted or flagged regardless of whether that user was a sponsor or not.

[Jer]

I don't know that I disagree that this is possible. I just know that this forum has a track record of deleting posts where a mod/sponsor disagrees with a user when the user is right so I guess I'm a little more sensitive to this than others might be. If this was an isolated incident then maybe I might not have even cared and could understand it was a for sale thread that it was occurring on.

It should be noted, however, that my initial post was as someone who was interested in buying pointing out that him raising the price again didn't sit well with me as a potential buyer. It was actually to help him out because he obviously couldn't see how some might take this move. I was polite, concise and professional and even genuinely wished him luck with his sale. He chose to attack me personally I guess because he was offended and couldn't see my post as the constructive criticism that it was and it was HE who proceeded to trash his own for sale thread by turning it into some sort of bash me thread to make himself look better. This wasn't your typical 'guy posting to a for sale thread just to tell the seller his car was $h!t and his price was $10k too high for a turd like that' but it was received the same for reasons unknown to me. Some people just don't know when they are wrong and will turn things ugly to try to avert the attention away from the obvious. It doesn't sit well with me when these people are sheltered because they give a few bucks to the site in the form of advertising dollars.

[98mkiv]

If you're an interested buyer then all deals, conversations, and negotiations should be handled via PM. Posts like "PM'd you with an offer" usually work just fine.

There is no need for constructive criticism, or ANY criticism when a guy is selling his ride. If he's in it to make a buck. OK. If he's in it just to test the waters... OK. It doesn't concern you unless you're BUYING. And if you're buying then you're either making an offer and getting the car or not. Even haggling over price publicly would be accepatable. Insults, arguments and criticsism are for PMs. To state things like "you'll never get that price.... it's not worth it" means you're not a buyer and mean you are just cluttering the thread and potentially driving off a buyer. You'd be surprized how many people will buy a car that they really like. I myself am very interested in that car, it's ultra rare, I have major wood for hardtops (can show in pics if you want) and have love the cloth seats and RSP color.

So to me, while I think the asking is high, so be it. Look on ebay at some of the people buying supras for $50K + . I wouldn't do it. I'm also not going to write the seller an email and tell him he's smoking crack and should not accept that bid.

what's the point of arguing with a seller Jer. If someone wants to sell their item, for whatever they ask, what concern is it of yours?

[Dramon]

To state things like "you'll never get that price.... it's not worth it" means you're not a buyer and mean you are just cluttering the thread and potentially driving off a buyer.

I've had so many of my threads on RX-7 Forums fucked by people saying crap like that even when half the time it wasn't even true and my asking price was solid. They say crap like that then 2 months later I make a new post and sell it for my original asking price. So I wish that mods would actually be more active and delete shit like that. Even if it was meant to be constructive and carry a positive connotation things are easily misconstrued over the internet and its hard to convey certain tones, which is why its nine times out of ten better to just not say anything unless the seller is just straight up selling a bad product. I tried selling a spoiler on rx7club and had probably the only 3 people on that forum with the spoiler post up pics and say that its not very rare when in actuality it is. Then another guy came in and said that a lot of them had been going for sale for cheaper lately and i wouldnt get my price. I looked that up and the ones that were being sold one of them the guy ended up keeping and another one was a totally different type of spoiler than the one I was selling.

But back on topic..

Mark has been fair in deleting post IMO, i've monitored his thread deleting since the beginning and have asked him why he deleted posts everytime I thought it might have been questionable and he's always given me logical and unbiased explanations as to why. The reason i've done this is not only so I understand why he did it and what is going on, but also so I can vouch for him in cases like this. While some may have been questionable when looking in from the outside, for what its worth, I can assure you that any deletions were purely non-political and level-headed.

[Jer]

I've had so many of my threads on RX-7 Forums fucked by people saying crap like that even when half the time it wasn't even true and my asking price was solid. They say crap like that then 2 months later I make a new post and sell it for my original asking price. So I wish that mods would actually be more active and delete shit like that. Even if it was meant to be constructive and carry a positive connotation things are easily misconstrued over the internet and its hard to convey certain tones, which is why its nine times out of ten better to just not say anything unless the seller is just straight up selling a bad product. I tried selling a spoiler on rx7club and had probably the only 3 people on that forum with the spoiler post up pics and say that its not very rare when in actuality it is. Then another guy came in and said that a lot of them had been going for sale for cheaper lately and i wouldnt get my price. I looked that up and the ones that were being sold one of them the guy ended up keeping and another one was a totally different type of spoiler than the one I was selling.

I couldn't agree more and I hate when people bash for sale threads. IMO this policy on SupraForums is one of the reasons that the prices of the MKIV has remained stable over the years. Believe it or not an online forum actually plays a rather large roll in how the buying public perceives value in a certain type of vehicle. Conversely, there's only one popular Syclone/Typhoon and over the years it allowed open criticism of prices on for sale threads. It's my personal opinion that people bashing threads that have no intention of buying make potential buyers question the vehicles value. I feel this is a good comparison because both of these vehicles are about the same age, limited production, similar performance numbers and MSRPs and yet today the values are polar opposites. So, you see, I think if anything I have a better grasp of what sales thread bashing can do and have been outspoken on this in other forums. IMO, it's also sellers that can affect this by using unethical practices. It is also my opinion that this seller (who shall remain unnamed) was indeed doing just that. That is the ONLY reason I posted to that thread. Otherwise I was content to stay subscribed to the thread and wait for the price to come down to what I was willing to pay for the vehicle.

Mark has been fair in deleting post IMO, i've monitored his thread deleting since the beginning and have asked him why he deleted posts everytime I thought it might have been questionable and he's always given me logical and unbiased explanations as to why. The reason i've done this is not only so I understand why he did it and what is going on, but also so I can vouch for him in cases like this. While some may have been questionable when looking in from the outside, for what its worth, I can assure you that any deletions were purely non-political and level-headed.

I disagree here. I think Mark is a great guy and is very knowledgeable and bends over backwards to assist customers and forum members and if he lived in the same town I'm pretty confident we would be friends. That being said, I feel that he deleted a whole string of posts several months ago that shouldn't have been deleted. He was mistakenly giving false information regarding something and when I posted to try to plant a seed of doubt so that new people reading the posts wouldn't think that was the way it HAD to be I was told I was wrong. I know for a fact my way was better yet approached it from a stand point of there could be two possible answers so that Mark wouldn't look bad in his own section. He chose not to let that post be and proceeded to attack me and try to undue my credibility. Post after post I was keeping my tact and allowing Mark to agree that either way was viable and yet he continued to say 'I'm right and you're wrong' when I was giving him every chance to agree that neither was 'right or wrong' when if anyone was closer to 'right' it was me. I didn't feel the need to call him out even when he started touting how many turbo kits he sold when I feel my experience is every bit as viable as his if not more so. I've been modding turbo cars for 15yrs now and even though I didn't post that at the time feel as though my knowledge is pretty broad on the topic of turbo theory and application. Even though I was right I felt no need to crowned king of some internet discussion or be told I was right... hence why I approached it from a 'we're both right' stand point. In the end, the discussion back and forth between he and I accomplished what I wanted and allowed a great deal of information to be presented for other forum members with the will to learn and not just fork over cash for parts blindly. But then I was BEYOND pissed off when he deleted EVERY post that I made to that thread. It's not very often I take the time to go in great depth about specific things yet in this case I took LOTS of time fully explaining the process and even cited mass theory in several instances to further back up my claims. There was a LOT of great information not often found on online forums and it was deleted because it went against Mark's stance even if indirectly. He deleted it all saying that it was cluttering his thread. What? Isn't that the purpose to forums? To discuss and learn? Sorry if my scientifically backed facts were cluttering your perfect thread.

It went unchecked because of who he is but it's things like this that hurt the forum in the long run. To me that was inexcusable and was reason enough for me to stop frequenting the forum and also why I chose not to buy a NA-T kit from him as we had discussed. I still haven't bought a turbo kit yet cause part of me still wants to buy a kit from him since he seems to be such a great buy minus this single transgression. As I told Mark in PM's if it weren't for this then I probably would have looked past this recent transgression as it occurred in a for sale thread so I can understand that. But, to me anyway, it seems that it's creating a track history of mods/sponsors vs members that this new forum can ill afford.

This thread I started isn't just about that for sale thread. It's more of a big picture observation.

[98mkiv]

quit your bitching, fix your sig pic and start being an active member or I will ban you!






























JUST KIDDING DUDE!

Hey have a good friday night!

[maxlmus347]

for a second mark i thought you were serious! wow lets keep this site in good shape and not let peoples person bs get in the way of F/S threads and usefull information, THIS IS NOT A 15 YR OLDS BLOG! Everyone just keep cool, be cool like Fonzy, Ayaaaa

[98mkiv]

No banning of Jer.... I've known him for a long time. I know his hearts in the right place, and hopefully he can see I'm kidding and that I really just want him to contribute here.

If he doesn't like it, well shit, don't complain, jump in and make it better!

[Jer]

Jumping in and making it better is what I'm doing w/the limited amount of power that I've been given. Bringing it something I feel a problem to the attention to everyone, members, mods/admins and sponsors alike. This is the first step in bringing about change.

[Dramon]

It went unchecked because of who he is but it's things like this that hurt the forum in the long run. To me that was inexcusable and was reason enough for me to stop frequenting the forum and also why I chose not to buy a NA-T kit from him as we had discussed. I still haven't bought a turbo kit yet cause part of me still wants to buy a kit from him since he seems to be such a great buy minus this single transgression. As I told Mark in PM's if it weren't for this then I probably would have looked past this recent transgression as it occurred in a for sale thread so I can understand that. But, to me anyway, it seems that it's creating a track history of mods/sponsors vs members that this new forum can ill afford.

This thread I started isn't just about that for sale thread. It's more of a big picture observation.

Help refresh my memory on what thread it was? I think I have an idea but can't completely remember it.

[Jer]

Help refresh my memory on what thread it was? I think I have an idea but can't completely remember it.

I don't recall the specific thread which it occurred in and of course there is no longer any evidence that it ever happened which is what I'm upset about. Good information that could have been useful to other members that I spent a lot of time on.... gone. Most forums sticky the type of information that I posted and this forum deleted it. See where I might be upset?

[LexusFTW]

I don't recall the specific thread which it occurred in and of course there is no longer any evidence that it ever happened which is what I'm upset about. Good information that could have been useful to other members that I spent a lot of time on.... gone. Most forums sticky the type of information that I posted and this forum deleted it. See where I might be upset?
Maybe Mark can chime in, do you remember anything about this thread Jer?

[98mkiv]

don't recall specifically..... I deal with a huge volume of email/threads/posts/orders/fixes/etc every day.

[Dramon]

I don't recall the specific thread which it occurred in and of course there is no longer any evidence that it ever happened which is what I'm upset about. Good information that could have been useful to other members that I spent a lot of time on.... gone. Most forums sticky the type of information that I posted and this forum deleted it. See where I might be upset?
I can remember some good info you've posted, I just wish I could remember the specific thread that was deleted.

[Wicked CAS]

Just subscribing to this thread.

...oh and I am including a quote from the "sticky" section of Cars FS section.

Poor Habits:
a) Comments such as "another place has it for less" are not appreciated.
b) Comments about the sellers merchandise, unless factual, that are deemed derogatory or inflammatory will not be tolerated and will be deleted or edited.
C) Comments regarding your sale of a same or similar item will not be tolerated - open your own thread.



Thank you.

[Jer]

Here he is to stir the pot again. I made NO derogatory or inflammatory comments about your car you were trying to sell. In fact, I even wished you luck with the sale of said automobile. My post was pointing out how your 'sales tactics' are being taken from an outside perspective and you chose to attack me. YOU are the one who ruined your thread. You have a history of ruining threads on other forums so I guess this is nothing new. Funny how you think you're never the cause/reason for them to be ruined too. In this instance it was all swept under the rug for you, all nice and tidy like. So now you want to start this 'discussion' up in this thread too??

[custom built]

I think your stating ANYTHING about his sales tactics is a waste of your breath. "He is not Best Buy" but if he wants to sell it cheaper for one week he can. you are not superman, you dont need to chime in and try to save every person who might buy this item. Grown adults can negotiate their own deal if they want something cheaper, if they cant then that sucks for them. This whole thing is crazy. Just follow the rules and dont post derogitory or false statements and you would have been fine stating your opinion. As for stiring again.......you started this thread. just like you did he is making his point but look.....no derogitory statements, just facts posted by the forum owner.

as for him ruining other threads....ive been here watching and for 2 out of 2 threads that i have seen you in, you are ruining them. YOU SIR NEED TO RELAX AND STOP FIGHTING CRIME. ( see, that was a step twords what not to do in a post. hahaha)

[Wicked CAS]

Twice now I've had entire conversation threads deleted because it went against what a site sponsor said even if it was the wrong thing. This forum will NOT survive if it continues to allow site sponsors to say incorrect things or go unchecked by acting shady for whatever reason and then be able to delete any opposition regardless of level of intelligence or class used in presenting the correct information or point out how they have acted in an otherwise improper manner.

I don't even have to say anything, your own post says it all.

You got deleted twice because you said the wrong thing (against the rules)

You called people shady not having any basis on your accusations, just because you think it, it does not make it so. (you can get sued for defemation of character).

"If you don't have anything nice to say don't say anythng at all"

I am just sticking with forum rules. I would like you to do the same thing. SAME RULES YOU AGREED TO WHEN YOU SIGNED UP

Here he is to stir the pot again. I made NO derogatory or inflammatory comments about your car you were trying to sell. In fact, I even wished you luck with the sale of said automobile.

Your own sentence in your original quote sounds like an invitation. and I am not the one who started this.

I'm not going to mention names but those who I'm talking about know who you are. If you choose to come forward and discuss what you did then that's fine.

You have a history of ruining threads on other forums so I guess this is nothing new
Here you go again stating something without having any basis. Show me one thread... ONE that I have ruined. I dare you, really... Just show me one... You did not even listen to what I said on my FS thread. Other forums thread was started by someone else and I never posted in it, and it was about the rareness of the car. It had nothing to do with me and nothing I said could have contributed since I was not part of it and I never posted in that thread, I was an ouitsider watching. AGAIN YOU HAVE NO CLUE and yet you state about something you have not understood.

I would show you more respect when you have some basis for your statements, otherwise... Keep your opinions to yourself in other peoples FS section. You have no right to tell someone what to do with their own car. Absolutely NO RIGHT.

[LexusFTW]

this is out of control

[Jer]

Just follow the rules and dont post derogitory or false statements and you would have been fine stating your opinion

And right there is the problem. I didn't say anything false or derogatory and yet my posts were deleted.

[Jer]

I don't even have to say anything, your own post says it all.

You got deleted twice because you said the wrong thing (against the rules)

You called people shady not having any basis on your accusations, just because you think it, it does not make it so. (you can get sued for defemation of character).

"If you don't have anything nice to say don't say anythng at all"

I am just sticking with forum rules. I would like you to do the same thing. SAME RULES YOU AGREED TO WHEN YOU SIGNED UP



Your own sentence in your original quote sounds like an invitation. and I am not the one who started this.




Here you go again stating something without having any basis. Show me one thread... ONE that I have ruined. I dare you, really... Just show me one... You did not even listen to what I said on my FS thread. Other forums thread was started by someone else and I never posted in it, and it was about the rareness of the car. It had nothing to do with me and nothing I said could have contributed since I was not part of it and I never posted in that thread, I was an ouitsider watching. AGAIN YOU HAVE NO CLUE and yet you state about something you have not understood.

I would show you more respect when you have some basis for your statements, otherwise... Keep your opinions to yourself in other peoples FS section. You have no right to tell someone what to do with their own car. Absolutely NO RIGHT.

Defamation of character... this is rich. Tell you what, have your legal team give me a ring.

As for being deleted twice by saying the wrong thing... who decided that I said the wrong thing? I can see how things got a little overboard in your for sale thread but my first post wasn't an attack the way your replies were. So, since it was indeed a for sale thread I can forgive that and I already said several times but here you are again trying to stir the pot. This isn't the first time that my posts have been deleted in this forum so I'm a little upset about it. Again, your thread really wasn't even the part that really upset me, I guess it just dug up feelings I hadn't expressed about what happened months ago in another thread where I hadn't said anything false or derogatory yet all of my posts were deleted. It just had the same feel as what happened then but I can see that I was a little out of line being a for sale thread but at the same time you didn't handle things very well either.

I never told you what to do in your for sale thread. I only stated (as a potential buyer I might add) that the way you raised the price again w/o any justification was coming off as shady and might cause other potential buyers to think the same way. I don't know too many other people that increase the price of their vehicle w/o an reason. But hey, it's your for sale thread and your car right? As I stated in the thread already I'm no longer interested in the car based on your shady dealings so there's really no reason for us to even discuss this, right? For future reference I won't say a thing. I'll be like the other people who may have been interested in your car who saw that and moved on w/o saying anything only to leave you wondering why nobody is interested in your car. I mean seriously, if you have an item for sale at a certain price for a period of time and nobody is interested what makes you think they would be interested at a higher price? I mean, if you can't see how potential buyers would see this action as shady at least agree that it's not a wise business move. As for the Best Buy statement, the difference is that Best Buy is selling several of the same item and had people interested in the item at the regular price as well as the 'sales' price. If they were selling an item at a marked price and nobody was interested they wouldn't increase the price to try to sell. It's fairly simple economics and if you can't understand it then there's no need for me to try to point it out because you're just not going to get it.

As I stated before, good luck with the sale.

[98mkiv]

Here's the deal; you cannot post anything in a FS thread that is not relevant to your interest in purchasing the item. I'm not going to argue details, I think it's pretty clear to most people what's allowed and whats not. You can test those waters and if you find your posts deleted you will eventually figure out why.


Posting anything negative in anyones FS thread without serious justification is not allowed.

[custom built]

i am ok with my stuff being deleated..... i am done

[custom built]

SEE ....deleated and im ok... :ohnoes: