NA-T PiggyBack Thread: To End All Questions!

[OdyOwnage]

Hello,

I currently have an NA-T 1995 Toyota Supra 5-speed with stock MAF, HG, fuel.

I am utilizing the XSPower T61 kit with an SAFC as a means of management.

I currently have NO BIG issues at all except for a rich/lean CEL (which would be solved after tuning) and the ALMIGHTY STALLING issue.

Stalling happens when I build boost and let off OR if I am driving and take it to 3-4000 RPM's and let off.

I wanted to create this thread primarily for the stalling problem that people have on their Supra's, SC's, etc.

I realize that piggyback systems react differently for OBDI and OBDII cars and maybe it's even different for 5-speed and Automatics.

So, what piggyback systems exist to eliminate this issue:

-SAFC I, II, NEO + VPC
-Greddy Emanage Blue, Ultimate
-MAP ECU 1, 2
-AEM EMS, FIC
-Megasquirt System (not familiar with this one, only that you have to make a harness)

Now let's think on a budget and knock out the AEM EMS. I want something cost effective, reliable and easy to install.

Which combination's would be the best for the OBD I NA-T's and the OBD II NA-T's?

Understand that VPC's are hard to get and discontinued as well as SAFC2, SAFC1. Those things create problems as well.

And what about the MEGASQURT system? What exactly does that entail?

These is the type of discussion I would want to have.

I hear that MAP ECU's are not friendly with OBD I's, I hear that Emanage has similar defects that are not friendly with cars either.

Please don't make me believe that a product works either because I really want to find a conclusion to this and solve this problem once and for all. It seems when I read threads regarding this issue, they start out good then turn bad and then become good again. NO STRAIGHT ANSWERS!

Don't get me wrong now, the car can be driven with the stalling (by giving it gas) but to eliminate it would be the greatest achievement!

So please, help me in solving this debackle for me and for the member's. I am sure they would like to know as well.

Thanks,

OdyOwange

[TSVAristo]

I had the stalling issue because the Apexi Neo and wasn't playing nice with my ECU and 440cc injectors. I have pulled my injectors and Neo and put my stock injectors back in and no more stalling, I just can't go stupid crazy boosting. I plan on getting the AEM FIC , tune it , and finally enjoy my car again. I have seen the IS300 guys love the FIC , I dont think I need the EMS since I'm not planning on making crazy horsepower 350-400 is good enough for me.

[OdyOwnage]

I had the stalling issue because the Apexi Neo and wasn't playing nice with my ECU and 440cc injectors. I have pulled my injectors and Neo and put my stock injectors back in and no more stalling, I just can't go stupid crazy boosting. I plan on getting the AEM FIC , tune it , and finally enjoy my car again. I have seen the IS300 guys love the FIC , I dont think I need the EMS since I'm not planning on making crazy horsepower 350-400 is good enough for me.

So you are saying that you solved the problem by using stock injectors?

What are the differences between Apex NEO and SAFC I?

I wonder...also, you car is an OBD I or II?

[TSVAristo]

Mine is OBDII

[armyastro]

the stalling after you let off is usually due to a non recirc BOV. if you dont recirc it then the MAF gets a air loss signal and stalls out. if you recirc it then it gets that gush of charge air and stays happy. what BOV are you running

[OdyOwnage]

the stalling after you let off is usually due to a non recirc BOV. if you dont recirc it then the MAF gets a air loss signal and stalls out. if you recirc it then it gets that gush of charge air and stays happy. what BOV are you running

No, that is NOT true. I am using Mark's SSQV style BOV with recirculation and it is NOT helping what so ever.

I have yet to see someone that has ELIMINATE not ALLEVIATE stalling problems with recirculation...

[OdyOwnage]

Any other inputs?

[jessupra]

I currently have this problem too, my car completely stalls out when i get to a stop or when revving high, person i bouht this car from told me that the greedy e-manage was the one he preffered why? i dont know, plus im a noob.

[DrNick]

The Emanage has an engine anti stall function which allows you to clamp the AFM voltage so that idle doesnt jump around when the bov vents.

[OdyOwnage]

I currently have this problem too, my car completely stalls out when i get to a stop or when revving high, person i bouht this car from told me that the greedy e-manage was the one he preffered why? i dont know, plus im a noob.

I know, this is the reason why I started this thread.

The Emanage has an engine anti stall function which allows you to clamp the AFM voltage so that idle doesnt jump around when the bov vents.

Ultimate or Blue?

[phatmanscoot]

any input for map ecu's and obdI?

[jessupra]

ultimate or blue wtf?

[OdyOwnage]

any input for map ecu's and obdI?

I believe Bean has an answer to that one.

ultimate or blue wtf?

Huh?

[Boosted A80]

I know, this is the reason why I started this thread.



Ultimate or Blue?

They both have that feature. MAP ECU would be my top pick for a piggyback but if there is anyway you could afford the EMS get it, it will save you a lot of headaches associated with piggyback's especially if you plan on improving your setup.

SAFC didn't help me at all with stalling and I'm auto and recirc'd.

[OdyOwnage]

They both have that feature. MAP ECU would be my top pick for a piggyback but if there is anyway you could afford the EMS get it, it will save you a lot of headaches associated with piggyback's especially if you plan on improving your setup.

SAFC didn't help me at all with stalling and I'm auto and recirc'd.

This seems to be the ongoing debate. People that I talk to over at SF say they eliminated it with the SAFC I, II, NEO, etc...

[jessupra]

I ended up going with map ecu 1, payd 1400 for tuning and installation and a short my car had, and car is runnin worser, car actually stalls, and is very hard to keep my car from turnin off when givin it gas, compared to when it was runnin with saf all i had to do was give it gas and it would stay on, shop says i have to buy smaller injectors bacause the ones currently on the car are dumping too much fuel, they also told me that my wastegate is stuck and that is another motive why my car is having issues, left from the shop alittle dissappointed and very skeptical, any advice people.

[jessupra]

I ended up going with map ecu 1, payd 1400 for tuning and installation and a short my car had, and car is runnin worser, car actually stalls, and is very hard to keep my car from turnin off when givin it gas, compared to when it was runnin with saf all i had to do was give it gas and it would stay on, shop says i have to buy smaller injectors bacause the ones currently on the car are dumping too much fuel, they also told me that my wastegate is stuck and that is another motive why my car is having issues, left from the shop alittle dissappointed and very skeptical, any advice people?

[OdyOwnage]

Well, that's a freaking headache...

[nghty89]

To end all questions huh? Only creating more for me. Fairly new to the na-t idea so before I buy/install everything:

1. What is inexpensive, reliable, and easy to connect? I want to keep my 7mgte harness in the car for ease of installation, but can find very little info on the mkiii 2jzna-t swap

2. I want something as simple to tune as possible, but I want to run 600-650whp daily, maybe a little less (say 550hp).

I am asking because so far, no true definitive stuff, even when searching. And I've got so much to go over in these finaly days that I'm a tad overwhelmed and wanted to make it easier :biggrin:

[Supralover25]

I have an OBD I NA-T that I have tried many different piggy back systems on, at first I thought I was mentally deficient, so I gave my problem to a mechanic... 2 more PB systems later I figured the mechanic was retarded. The start of this thread asks simply does a piggy back work. I say no! At least not to my liking, I could have bought 2 EMS' now for all the SAFC, MAP ECU, and Sensors I have gone through. The honey pot is low so before I am royally F*&%@# I am getting the AEM with the long harness and fly wires for $2000, I have plenty of sensors lying around, that I am now beginning to believe, worked in the first place. I believe the thread about the NA-T that purrs like a kitten w/ 720 cc inj., T-70, and 700 rwhp, is an urban legend that a friend heard from a friend from a friend that probably lives in Japan. Well for us left seat drivers with limited budgets stand alone and plug and play are my 2 phrases of the day!

[Supralover25]

Now that I have vented, thanks by the way, I have a question for the masses. Most sites that sell AEM EMS have seperate ones for the NA and TT. Do I need to get the NA so it will trully be plug and play? Or since I have an NA-T should I get the TT so the MAPS will match, or be closer anyway, and the harnesses are the same???

[OdyOwnage]

I believe you have to get the NA version.

I think you have a GREAT point though. After all the money you spend on piggy-backs and VPC's and sensors and troubleshooting and paying people to try and fix the problem.

I just think that in the end it's better to get an AEM EMS...

:(

[silver bullet]

I believe you have to get the NA version.

I think you have a GREAT point though. After all the money you spend on piggy-backs and VPC's and sensors and troubleshooting and paying people to try and fix the problem.

I just think that in the end it's better to get an AEM EMS...

:(

a-men , iv spent over "£200" ($400) on diferent map sensprs that iv benn told would work alone ,

and im at the point wer i think safc is a waist of time and money ,

[rocessk3]

What would be the general price for each of the different products? I'm new the na-t world and this is definitely one topic i need to learn alot more about lol.

[yauser]

Do they actually have electronics where you can hook up onto your car, and have it tune you air/fuel as you drive? I just finished my na-t project, and would like to look into something like this before taking it to the dyno.

[silver bullet]

the safcs can marginly adjust your afr as you go but you are better off geting a standalone ecu and having it maped by a tuner properly that removes all the proplems you will have if your car is map not maf , maybe you could have a standalone and then hook a safc up to that so you can make minor adjustment to the fuel after it has been corectly maped , , has anybody ever tryed that ??

[DrNick]

Do they actually have electronics where you can hook up onto your car, and have it tune you air/fuel as you drive? I just finished my na-t project, and would like to look into something like this before taking it to the dyno.

Yes my eManage interfaces via the option port with my Innovate LC1 wideband and adjusts the injector adjustment map based on target AFRs.
It is a bit slow to respond, so its not suitable for constant adjustments as you drive but it is suitable to get a rough map which you can edit yourself later.

[domantas]

Yes my eManage interfaces via the option port with my Innovate LC1 wideband and adjusts the injector adjustment map based on target AFRs.
It is a bit slow to respond, so its not suitable for constant adjustments as you drive but it is suitable to get a rough map which you can edit yourself later.


I will be running stock fuel, wented bov with my t61 setup (want 280-320 hp). Which one you have blue or ultimate? Are you wented and where is your bov and maf located? SO you think that eManage can solve the stalling issiue?

[DrNick]

My car does not have a MAF so i wouldnt be able to help you. I have an emanage ultimate, and it does have an anti-stall feature for MAF based cars so it would probably work although I can't say for sure since I've never tried it.

[Curry]

MAP ECU 1- I've heard people have tuning issues.

MAP ECU 2- I've heard people have tuning issues.

SAFCII- Easy to tune and works great. DOES NOT HELP WITH STALLING

AEM FIC- Does not work on OBD-1

Emanage Blue- Does NOT work on ODB-1 cars

Emanage Ultimate- Haven't seen anyone try this

Hal-tech- Haven't seen anyone try this

Megasquirt- Seen one person use this so far.

Recirculation- Alleviates the problem, still causes the car to bog after coming off higher boost... or quick stops...

In short... Convert to OBD-II or get the AEM-EMS

[OdyOwnage]

MAP ECU 1- I've heard people have tuning issues.

MAP ECU 2- I've heard people have tuning issues.

SAFCII- Easy to tune and works great. DOES NOT HELP WITH STALLING

AEM FIC- Does not work on OBD-1

Emanage Blue- Does NOT work on ODB-1 cars

Emanage Ultimate- Haven't seen anyone try this

Hal-tech- Haven't seen anyone try this

Megasquirt- Seen one person use this so far.

Recirculation- Alleviates the problem, still causes the car to bog after coming off higher boost... or quick stops...

In short... Convert to OBD-II or get the AEM-EMS

This is the list I was looking for hahaha thanks! :biggrin:

[mteele]

I went with the MAP-ECU for my OBD II car

[oneforspawn]

yeah but what about obd-111111111111....

[mteele]

MAP-ECU doesnt like OBD-I from all that I have read

[OdyOwnage]

MAP-ECU doesnt like OBD-I from all that I have read

Ding!

[phatmanscoot]

MAP ECU does not work at all with OBD I. I tried it and sold it soon after. SAFC I or II is probably the best thing besides AEM EMS for obdi's.

[Ineed2speed]

Not even the MAP ECU II will work for the OBD I guys?

[rocessk3]

How hard would tuning an OBD2 car with a MAP ECU on stock fuel, injectors, HG, etc. be for someone who's got no prior experience in tuning? If i were to pay to have it tuned, how much $$$ would i be looking at?

[Kman Supra]

Not even the MAP ECU II will work for the OBD I guys?

+1

[domantas]

we shoul have obd1 an obd2 guys seperated in this site :) keep going guys!

[jessupra]

So 2k and a few weeks later my car is runnin like a champ, sp enigineering is all i got to say, and yes mapecu1 can be tuned with a obd1, just gotta get the right tuner.

[SCdreamz]

this is something im interested in also since it is only a month away that i need to purche some type of fuel managements. OBD I by the way. I have a tuner who talked of a way to get the AEM FIC to work. I cant remember what he said but he explained it to me. I will talk to him this week and see what he said. From what i remember they have already ran it on an OBD I car and got it to work with no hick-ups.

[2jzlex]

Uhhh just for clarification.... map ecu 1 and map ecu 2 can be tuned with OBD1 cars. I am OBD1 w/ ECU 2. I don't know where that started. I self tune w/ no 02 sensors which throws it into open loop mode so the ecu does not fight the adjustments that you make while in closed loop. On the fly timing and fuel cell adjustments all day long at every RPM and vac/boost level exactly how I enter it. If you want my opinion, stay away from units that alter the MAF signal with % +/- increments, not even worth the time to install imho. The more you confuse an ecu the more you chase your tail.

Jon

[DirtyDserieswoot]

Uhhh just for clarification.... map ecu 1 and map ecu 2 can be tuned with OBD1 cars. I am OBD1 w/ ECU 2. I don't know where that started. I self tune w/ no 02 sensors which throws it into open loop mode so the ecu does not fight the adjustments that you make while in closed loop. On the fly timing and fuel cell adjustments all day long at every RPM and vac/boost level exactly how I enter it. If you want my opinion, stay away from units that alter the MAF signal with % +/- increments, not even worth the time to install imho. The more you confuse an ecu the more you chase your tail.

Jon

this is good to know .. how much does map ecuII run..

and does it adjust timing maps also?

[OdyOwnage]

Uhhh just for clarification.... map ecu 1 and map ecu 2 can be tuned with OBD1 cars. I am OBD1 w/ ECU 2. I don't know where that started. I self tune w/ no 02 sensors which throws it into open loop mode so the ecu does not fight the adjustments that you make while in closed loop. On the fly timing and fuel cell adjustments all day long at every RPM and vac/boost level exactly how I enter it. If you want my opinion, stay away from units that alter the MAF signal with % +/- increments, not even worth the time to install imho. The more you confuse an ecu the more you chase your tail.

Jon

Yes, but do you still have issues with stalling?

[DrNick]

I also noticed another mistake on that list - Emanage Blue can run fine on OBD1 too. Although its not a great unit since it doesn't have control over timing.

[soarerflame]

No, that is NOT true. I am using Mark's SSQV style BOV with recirculation and it is NOT helping what so ever.

I have yet to see someone that has ELIMINATE not ALLEVIATE stalling problems with recirculation...

i eliminated the stalling issue with an safc and recirculated BOV. Where do you have it recirculated?

[soarerflame]

I have an OBD I NA-T that I have tried many different piggy back systems on, at first I thought I was mentally deficient, so I gave my problem to a mechanic... 2 more PB systems later I figured the mechanic was retarded. The start of this thread asks simply does a piggy back work. I say no! At least not to my liking, I could have bought 2 EMS' now for all the SAFC, MAP ECU, and Sensors I have gone through. The honey pot is low so before I am royally F*&%@# I am getting the AEM with the long harness and fly wires for $2000, I have plenty of sensors lying around, that I am now beginning to believe, worked in the first place. I believe the thread about the NA-T that purrs like a kitten w/ 720 cc inj., T-70, and 700 rwhp, is an urban legend that a friend heard from a friend from a friend that probably lives in Japan. Well for us left seat drivers with limited budgets stand alone and plug and play are my 2 phrases of the day!

that my friend is the urban legend of the 2JZGE world. No such thing with a piggyback just go stand alone....AEM EMS is great but finicky it works 100% 90% of the time as they say. One of the best EMS i have had the pleasure of using the HKS FCON VPro and the Haltech line of products. IF you got deep pockets there is always MOtec....

[domantas]

soarer flame, what bov you running and what diameter recirculation pipe you using?

[OdyOwnage]

i eliminated the stalling issue with an safc and recirculated BOV. Where do you have it recirculated?

It is recirculated from the BOV before the MAF (meaning CLOSER to the turbo).

[domantas]

Recirculation situation... Lets say your bov is too tight. That means not all preasurised air is released from bov. That means you get compreasor surge and turbine suck air that is recirculated and plus because bov is too tight is sucks air from filter too, causing engine run a little ritch. I dont know how much difference bov would make but correctly adjusted thats all I can think of why our cars stall even recirculated.

Could we solve this by raising idle speed with idle adjustment screw on throttle body?

Karmen MAF and safc I think is good enough for setups that involves stock 330's injectors and no more than 10psi. Above that is the point when you have to consider about timing adjustent what safc is not able to do, but in basic setups up to 10 psi safc is all that needed to tune obd1. I dont have my personal experiance about safc, but I have done alot of reaserch about it. In stock injector setups we should tune just the hi-throtle settings (wot, no 02 signal) and tune to ritchen up to be in the safe side. While in closed loop (partial throttle) our cars are using o2 sensor signal to run stioch and ECU fights safc adjustments. It could be tuned in closed loop but you have to make your 02 read stoich (02 similator or disconecting them). Im not specialist, im just throwing my ideas from what I learned while reaserching.

[96NA-T]

Running OBD-2 with 650cc inj and a HKS SAFR...no real problems:dunno:

[chopstickz]

Just wanted to let everyone know that I have a mapecu in my na-t supra. No stalling issues or anything even though I've just went to fill up 91 for my tune tomorrow. I'll be posting a map from these tuners. They have a great reputation as well.

[tugnit]

safc neo work on OBD1 with 330cc injectors??

[Mr Ree NZ]

Emanage ultimate works on my map based JDM fine.

Im running no 02 sensors apart from the wideband.

My idle occassionly goes a little low (500ish) and sometimes a little high 1000ish but 90% of the time runs fine and feels like stock.

When I first drive it from cold though it normally tries to stall when coming to the first set of traffic lights but once warm this issue seems to disappear.

My car is throwing codes occasionally, most often it happens when driving up steep hills with low throttle applications, it also normally throws a code when im buiding up speed to get on the motorway (freeway;))

I have tried to plug in the obd1 diagnosics tool to read them but for some reason it doesnt seem to like my car and I can very rarely get it to start talking to my ecu.

I think when I did get finally get some info off it it said lean AFR and also speed sensor I think although im not certain.

Its certainly not a danger though as the tune is safe as houses

[domantas]

i have safc neo and have no problems or any cels. My bov is not re-routed so yes it will stall after i let of in neutral from 10 boost.

[tugnit]

Sweet cheers fellas,
Reith I was looking at map-ecu but I chose the neo over it due to its ability to tune without a laptop or computer etc.
Also it gives afr readings and I don't have a wideband yet, so will just display narrowband a/f.

Any of you guys not using wideband?? Is there any problem with narrowband??

Russell

[chopstickz]

Just so everyone knows, I have a MapEcu1 file that was tuned by SP Engineering if anyone needs it. My car runs fine and my bov is vented to atmosphere.

[domantas]

you need wideband

[belement]

chopstickz how much power are u at roughly?

[chopstickz]

~300whp